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The BACKHOE : Psyhovelcology
Inferiority? << Prev Topic | Next >>
Posted: 9/16/03 by the shovel 

 
  • SHOVEL: So, any encouraging thoughts?
  • FRIEND: YES (my friend sent me a "positive mental attitude" story and commented on it), it made sense from a worldly point of view, but still it hits home.  Attitude is all about LIFE which for us is Jesus Christ.  I thought it was interesting so I e-mailed it to you.
  • SHOVEL: I can appreciate stories like that, but it still tells me that those without Christ use this attitude for their motivation .... we have something far superior!!!
  • FRIEND: When you don't have Christ as your saviour you have to use something
  • SHOVEL: It is the best one can hope for without the true life.  But still under all of it there is emptiness and hatred of the truth and of God and of us
  • FRIEND: Yes, I know exactly what you mean ... still, all truth is God's truth.
  • SHOVEL: And what does that mean?
  • FRIEND: I had one guy who was a friend of mine here that absolutely will not speak to me due to a talk we had about the sovereignity of God.  I don't remember the guy's name from years back that was involved in the satanic cult, but this guy had been involved with some really bad mojo.
  • SHOVEL: Bad mojo, huh?  :)  So, why do you bring this up?
  • FRIEND: Anyhow ,the individual I mentioned had been tied up in some pretty heavy duty satan worship before he accepted Christ.
  • SHOVEL: Okay, so what's the point? I don't follow where you're going with this.
  • FRIEND: Let me clerify the facts.  This individual accepted the Lord shortly after he met me some three years ago.He was ecstatic to have received Jesus Christ and began writing scriptural essays of a sort .On one he wrote I was particularly disheartened because it nullified God's sovereignity ; he asked me what was wrong after he asked me to read his essay and while trying to be gentle the truth of my words cut him to the quick .He has never wanted to speak to me again
  • SHOVEL: do you see any resolution? or learned anything about such conflicts?
  • FRIEND: The only resolution I have is prayer, but that's a lot in itself
  • SHOVEL: What about talking of such things anymore?
  • FRIEND: I do not think the problem could have been handled another way.
  • SHOVEL: Are you sure?
  • FRIEND: I believe what really hurt this guy was some self doubts he already possessed and then his friend and mentor just shot him down was the way he felt for no good reason
  • SHOVEL: What do you really think he was saying by his essays? And does it really surprise you how he would view God's sovereignty?
  • FRIEND: I believe he was trying to express his deep love for God, but did not know how to
  • SHOVEL: So you think the guy does have the Spirit of God?
  • FRIEND: Yes
  • SHOVEL: Can I tell you some things I have learned over the years?
  • FRIEND: Not everything he said in his essays was bad.I pointed out many things he had written that were great and spoke the truth in love to him;  I EVEN SHOWED HIM A VARIETY OF SCRIPTURE PASSAGES AND ASSURED HIM I WAS WILLING TO TALK WITH HIM.  He got mad though; moreso than I could have ever imagined.  He told me that he had been hurt so bad by me that he had hoped I would die
  • SHOVEL: wow, are you sure you didn't kick him or something? Beat him up? :)
  • FRIEND: No, I never touched the guy.  Yes, you can tell me some words of wisdom
  • SHOVEL: From the fount of knowledge!!! hahaha :)  I've learned to listen carefully to people.  It just amazes me how intertwined our thoughts can be.
  • FRIEND: Yes, I know and listening carefully sometimes isn't my strongest point.  Do you remember when I was about 15 yrs. old ;I witnessed to this one guy in Pickwick Park and he threatened to blow my head off with a 12 gauge - just because I told him that God loved him?
  • SHOVEL: I remember you as a little squirt!! ;)   Yeah, expect all kinds of reactions, they will never quit.  Just look at how people reacted to Jesus.  It didn't always turn out right.  Don't expect any better reception than that.
  • FRIEND: No, I know that I'm being led daily to the same cross they led my LORD to.
  • SHOVEL: Anyway, what I've really learned from listening is that MOST OF THE TIME the words that someone is saying to you is NOT what they really mean or think.  Most of the time they don't even know themselves why they say what they say.  As you view through the gospel you will more and more find that no other view gives you an accurate picture.  The believers have been crucified with Christ, and even though you see before you evidence of anything but, you know that their true reality is a new creation, raised up from the dead.  This stinking culture we live in would tell us all kinds of views and NONE OF THEM are true.
  • FRIEND: AMEN TO THAT
  • SHOVEL: It brings a spirit of confusion to the believers who are caught up in estimating their value by the standards of this world.  And it makes no difference if these standards are the ones used in churches ... worldly standards are worldly standards.  Their basis is found in the elements of man.
  • FRIEND: This is true JIM.  I've heard some really strange things here from believers who have some fantastic insight into grace, but have threads of legalistic views intwined in the very grace they speak of and cannot see it.  I'm sure that all of my views are not the final say by any means and that God willing (I KNOW that He is) I will become of any worldly fabrications that I myself possess and trust the Lord to remove these stumbling blocks
  • SHOVEL: For I determined to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified.  Remember that?  How simple it is.
  • FRIEND: YES, I am crucified with Christ daily BUT NEVERTHELESS I live, but not I BUT CHRIST THAT LIVETH IN ME
  • SHOVEL: Don't lean upon the daily thing, the tense is that you HAVE BEEN crucified with Christ. Done, finished!  Now, do you see the "among you" in the verse I quoted, 1 Cor 2:2?
  • FRIEND: yes
  • SHOVEL: Paul said he determined to know nothing among THEM except Christ and Him crucified!!  Why do you suppose he said that?
  • FRIEND: Because only the new life had value since the old one was condemned
  • SHOVEL: Pretty good there, buddy boy.  It is only in the new creation that we can see the true reality of the one who believes.  His externals will tell you something different.
  • FRIEND: Yes,I've seen many here who profess Christ ,but their words and actions tell another tale and that is with preachers
  • SHOVEL: so, how do you tell the difference?
  • FRIEND: I listen for the words of LIFE that agree 100% with the word
  • SHOVEL: Listening for the words of life is fantastic.  And so what if they have screwy little doctrinal differences?
  • FRIEND: Depends on what you call "screwy" little doctrinal differences.  There is one church here that preaches salvation is conditional upon whether you change your lifestyle before you approach God and then be baptised for the INDWELLING OF THE HOLY GHOST.
  • SHOVEL: But does that really affect what you think?
  • FRIEND: It affects what you think if you do not seek the truth or care to disregard all of the warnings in scripture
  • SHOVEL: And what really makes a Christian a Christian?
  • FRIEND: Christ
  • SHOVEL: okay, then so we agree that words can not be real effective since there are so many ways to describe the EXPERIENCE
  • FRIEND: Untrue, words can be very effective if done in truth and spirit
  • SHOVEL: The guy in the church you mentioned agrees with that statement, but you and I would say he's full of it.  So, how do you determine it?
  • FRIEND: Through the inspired word
  • SHOVEL: He says the same thing.  And he can probably quote it better than both of us put together
  • FRIEND: YES, BUT THE EFFECTUAL words of the Gospel can accomplish anything
  • SHOVEL: ahh! No question there, but which gospel?
  • FRIEND: The Gospel of Jesus Christ as was given by God
  • SHOVEL: but the guy at the church you mentioned thinks HE preaches that gospel!  What about that?
  • FRIEND: In the latter days there shall be many deceivers ...
  • SHOVEL: He says he's right, you say he's not?  Who's right?
  • FRIEND: ... but on the Great and Terrible day of the Lord, He shall say to many to depart from Him because He never knew them ...
  • SHOVEL: but he says it's YOU!!
  • FRIEND: ... (ennomous and huponomous) ...
  • SHOVEL: OK, I know the verse, but you are not answering the question.
  • FRIEND: ... they were never inlaws to Christ
  • SHOVEL: BUT HE SAYS THE SAME ABOUT YOU AND QUOTES THE SAME PASSAGES!!!  AND YOU KNOW IT!!  What about it?
  • FRIEND: THEN YOU GIVE HIM THE FIST OF FURY ... just kidding!
  • SHOVEL: LOL :-)  But now, answer the question.  Or answer this: what takes you out of this argument?  What is the only thing you can lean on in any of this?  For the argument is the realm by which religious men have played for centuries
  • FRIEND: The faith you have in God that His word is true and that you have been crucified with Christ AND ARE NOW RAISED UP WITH HIM BY FAITH
  • SHOVEL: NO, forget it, no good!  Some good thoughts there, but can I make it more simple for you?
  • FRIEND: SHOOT
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    Posted: 9/16/03 by the shovel 

  • SHOVEL: This may sound anti climatic, but listen anyway.  We either are alive in Christ or we are not.  We either are justified or we are not.  We are talking about only 2 options in everything about Christ.  Life or death; light or darkness.  The Spirit of God is either in us is or He is not.  Agreed?
  • FRIEND: yes
  • SHOVEL: Can words make it true? or more true? or less true?  Can words negate a reality?
  • FRIEND: no
  • SHOVEL: This is where you must stand with the reality of the gospel; others want to play the WORD game with you.  They will pull you in; this is the place where they are experts: playing with words.  But words are not the problem, the deceptive heart is the problem.  But words will fool you.  They can also tell you exactly what is going on, though.  But mostly, it is not the "face value" of what is being said.  Following me?
  • FRIEND: Yes, with one friend of mine we were discussing the GRACE of GOD we had a roaring good time, but then he started talking about upping his tithes to the church because he thought he would receive even more grace; nothing wrong with giving abundantly to the Lord, but to think that by doing that you are going to get more than you already have made me sad for him.
  • SHOVEL: Ok, let me ask you a question in view of this.  Ready?
  • FRIEND: yes
  • SHOVEL: Okay, then. Let's assume the guy is really a believer, that he really has the Spirit of the living Christ in him, okay?  Now, what are his words really telling you if he is a believer?  Simple, now!
  • FRIEND: That he thinks GRACE HAS SOME KIND OF SPECIAL MERIT CODE ATTACHED TO IT
  • SHOVEL: Now, let's go with that.  Take it down even simpler, what is behind that?
  • FRIEND: WORKS
  • SHOVEL: And what behind that?
  • FRIEND: LEGALISM THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH GRACE
  • SHOVEL: You're getting more complicated, too technical, even though I agree with you.  Why would he think that?
  • FRIEND: he can affect his spiritual blessings more than what God HAS ALREADY SAID.  How much more can you have than all spiritual blessings?
  • SHOVEL: But WHY would he think that? Why would he pursue such a mindset?
  • FRIEND: KINGDOM TEACHINGS
  • SHOVEL: no, simpler
  • FRIEND: OK,this guy is looking at everything from the world's point of view instead of believing God
  • SHOVEL: Why?
  • FRIEND: His line of reasoning is based in the flesh (in dead works).  BECAUSE he is not seeing himself as alive in Christ blessed with every spiritual blessing and that God will provide all his needs according to the riches of His grace
  • SHOVEL: Okay, you are answering "scripturally" but the reality can be expressed in terms you are more familiar with in everyday kinda thoughts.  Continue.
  • FRIEND: He doesn't understand who he is or hasn't grasped the reality that he already possesses everything because of Christ and that his best natural man efforts can neither add to nor take away from Christ
  • SHOVEL: Okay, still getting wordy with doctrinal kind of understanding more so than with real, to you, or to him, understanding.  What drives a person to such thoughts and conclusions?  And then, how does what Christ gave us answer that?
  • FRIEND: The old nature tells us that we can be fixed up.  Christ tells us that was exactly the problem; there was no fixing this corrupt flesh.
  • SHOVEL: You are still skirting the most basic thing.  What is it?  What drives a believer (even an unbeliever) into futile ideas?
  • FRIEND: Dead thinking?
  • SHOVEL: What is that dead thinking?
  • FRIEND: Dead thinking is when you don't realize the position you hold in Christ and somehow try to make God's grace even gracier instead of seeing yourself in Him and possessing all.
  • SHOVEL: Forget the believer for a minute, what drives the unbeliever to grasp wrong concepts, or futile dreams
  • FRIEND: It creates a false sense of hope in an otherwise futile dilemma
  • SHOVEL: Try this: Why does an unbeliever choose to be legalistic?
  • FRIEND: A UNBELIEVER CHOOSES TO BE A LEGALIST TO SOMEHOW PROMOTE THAT HE OR SHE IS ABOVE ANOTHER IN SOME MANNER
  • SHOVEL: Why do they do that?
  • FRIEND: They are searching for some reason to exist that has some rewards attached to it
  • SHOVEL: aha!!!  See how simple that is?
  • FRIEND: huh?
  • SHOVEL: Then why would your friend believe such a concept about tithing?
  • FRIEND: Primarily because he came from a background that promoted such jibe
  • SHOVEL: That may be true, but that is only circumstantial.  Simple, remember, simple.  Same reasons that unbelievers do it.
  • FRIEND: OK, that's the way the world thinks.  He believes he's right
  • SHOVEL: Okay, NOW we're getting somewhere.  How does being right affect YOU?
  • FRIEND: EXPOUND.......
  • SHOVEL: hahaha,   :)  Got too personal, huh?  Don't you ever sense the need to be right and to do whatever it takes to make it appear that way?
  • FRIEND: Do you mean do I have to always be right?
  • SHOVEL: The basic need, don't get complicated
  • FRIEND: yes
  • SHOVEL: Why do you think you need to be right?
  • FRIEND: To justify my own self
  • SHOVEL: WHY?
  • FRIEND: So that I don't have to explain my actions
  • SHOVEL: Why wouldn't you want to be put in that position of having to explain your actions?  What does that mean?
  • FRIEND: Because, then I would have to give verifiable truths of which you could analyze
  • SHOVEL: AHA!!!  And why will you do whatever is necessary to keep me from pushing you there?
  • FRIEND: ....... I don't want you to see who I really am?
  • SHOVEL: YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You are afraid of that! Aren't you?
  • FRIEND: THINKING
  • SHOVEL: Why are you afraid of that?
  • FRIEND: ???????????
  • SHOVEL: You are backing off again!!
  • FRIEND: I guess it is just human nature to present yourself other than you really are, stripped of all the falsehoods where the truth remains
  • SHOVEL: What truth?  What truth is so important to hide?
  • FRIEND: That I MIGHT BE WRONG
  • SHOVEL: now you're really kicking!!  What else?
  • FRIEND: That you might know I'm wrong too?
  • SHOVEL: Wow!  This is the real stuff that Christ answers.  What else?  If you are wrong, what are you in reality?
  • FRIEND: inferior?
  • SHOVEL: Whoah!!!!! This is heavy stuff here.  Your worth!!! What if you find out that you really were worthless after all?  What if you were the piece of crap you have speculated that you might be?  And that you have called yourself over and over and over again?  What if under all those layers you discover that you have no purpose ... no meaning?  Do you see how simple this is?  You are not the only one who thinks that this could be who they really are!!  It is the most predominant driving force in this world.  Can you see that?
  • FRIEND: I can see that you have really stimulated my thought processes to the extreme
  • SHOVEL: Has it gone beyond those thought processes? Or is it just a logical thing to consider?
  • FRIEND: Yes, I can see where a man would be driven by a thousand reasonings to make sure he presents himself to the world as somebody they would like.
  • SHOVEL: And how about YOU? Do you see how you are driven in most of your waking hours?
  • FRIEND: I'm following your train of thought
  • SHOVEL: So, answer the question
  • FRIEND: Yes, I can see how without thimking about it, worldly concepts creep into foreplay
  • SHOVEL: Make that easier for me to understand
  • FRIEND: YES
  • SHOVEL: hahahahaha!!!!!   :)   You are so funny!  This is true freedom, to be able to look into that place that tells me that I am worthless, that I have no purpose, that I have no meaning.  It is freedom because it calls to the reality of what Christ has REALLY given me!  This freedom we have is from the whole mindset, the very basic operating principles of the world, that crap that I grew up with regardless of background.  The differences are merely circumstantial.  I NEEDED Jesus to die for me.  I NEED Him to be MY RIGHTEOUSNESS.  I NEED Him to have spoken for me.  Forgiveness .... wow!  Not to have all that worthlessness be held against me!!!  He has taken my sin, my worthless deeds of desperation to attempt to find my own worth.  He has taken it away!!!!  I WAS THAT WORTHLESS PIECE OF CRAP I WAS AFRAID I MIGHT BE!  But He has changed EVERYTHING.  I still make the attempt when I'm looking at my appearances to try to speak for myself.  How vain!  It didn't work before, why would it work now?  He has spoken for me -- forever -- to the Father.  Wow!!  It is our spirits agreeing together with His Spirit.
  • FRIEND: Man, oh, man, what a mouthful of precious truth.  Couldn't agree more.  Thank you for racking my brain so intently.  You know the older I grow the smarter my father seems to become.  It's amazing that having the insight into who you really were can affect who you really are.  Also, that it is so easy to forget the most basic of truths even for a moment can be torturious.
  • SHOVEL: I hear you, bro!  Can I ask you a favor?
  • FRIEND: Of course
  • SHOVEL: Would you allow me to take this conversation, edit it for length, and use it on the website.  I would take your name out if you want.
  • FRIEND: Absolutely
  • SHOVEL: Thank you very much!!  Expect to see it out there!!
  • FRIEND: GREAT
  • SHOVEL: I love you!!
  • FRIEND: Love you bro, bye.
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